Are We Seeing the General Collapse of Civility?

No we bloody haven't. This is NOT neat.

Personally, I blame the constant and huge abuse of caffeine. I experienced the same levels of anger and irritability over the last few years until I eliminated the gigantic intake of Mountain Dew from my diet.

I'm not kidding, folks. It's worth the few days of withdrawal headache to get off this crap. Down with Dunkies and Starbucks !!!

I think it is the interaction. Who is first- the followers that just "Do" things because their great examples do so too. Or is it the examples that just do what they think that their followers want them to act like. I think both- We humans are ultimate Herd-animals that on a lower level like to do nothing better than join the crowd.

And so gradually the crowd thinks that it is cool to act civil because they see their examples, their heroes act uncivil. But the examples, the heroes act uncivil because they are convinced that they will be loved by all because they act in an even more exaggerated way uncivilised.

And that is why the porn gets raunchier, the violent movies get more violent and agressive and the Stars act more and more uncivilised, rude, antisocial.

Some examples of this can be seen in the HipHop-culture and the Rap-scene where it is considered Cool to act like a Gangsta and talk like you gonna commit murder any time soon on even your closest friends, while collecting massive amounts of cash and weath with whatever means possible and while gathering "Bitches" around you that you can degrade to sex-objects.
But also movies like Iglorious Basterds or Trasinspotting and ...Rambo Umptime show the glory of being Agressive Dork.

Aside from that, in my direct environment I see that anonimity also helps the growing of uncivilised behavior- People don't see the profit in acting civil towards people they don't know.
Another thing is that where I live, by lots of people, civil behavior is considered as a sign of weakness and even Sissyness. If you are unsure, act dorky and agressive and you will prevail on you shortterm-objectives. That it could backfire in the long run doesn't seem to matter that much.
In my neighborhood this was realised by some of us and we acted on that- We got to know eachother and lo and behold the civil climate turned overnight and got much better and petty crime went down immediately.

So I think there lies the problem- Who dares to act first to turn this spiral round to point it the other way and make civil behavior look cool again?

Thanks foreigner1 - You're right that pop culture, particularly hip hop and rap, glamorizes violence and bad-assitude.

But it hasn't always been that way. Where's the class?

Well what do you expect from a country that for the last 60 years or so has seen rich fat people constantly bombing, burning, starving, torturing, and blaming poor, skinny, non consuming people for the problems we feel we have. (can't get cheap gas for our cars, or cheap sugar for our fat asses) Why would we expect politeness among ourselves, when we spend more money tormenting the rest of the world with our military than the rest of the world combined. Face it, if there is hope, it lies in the the Proles! If they want to grab mics and disrupt party sanctioned rituals out of selfishness or any other reason, it could prove better than sitting in front of Big Brother's camera and fretting about Osama Ben Laden. (Emmanuel Goldstein)

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/goldstein.html

I think we really have more to worry about than whether or not we treat ourselves politely.

I think its part internet/ part overpopulation.
The internet has shined a light on just how common and boring most of us are. Too many moronic people, too few of them interesting, and oh-so expendable... the whole lot.
At least in the past, we knew we were plentiful, but due to lack of communication we weren't painfully aware of just how much.
Nowadays everyone is connected, we're all over saturated by eachother and our coping mechanisim is to just not care anymore.

B.M. Two things:
What country do you mean? I guess the U.S. But this is global. Look at how people treat eachother in China, the former USSR, lots of European countries, in countries in Africa, in Mexico...

I think there is corellation between the way you behave towards eachother and the way the country you live in treats other countries and conflicts.

So yes perhaps we have more to worry about than manners, civilisedness and politeness.
But those attitudes and behavings do influence how we act as nations globally. To put it in a perhaps Flowerchild-context- The dissapearing of civil behaviour and the parallel dissapearing of showing respact towards one and other also makes the "We-feeling" in our comminities vanish rapidly.

Kanye has a history of rude and disruptive behavior, and appeared to be drunk that particular night.

Everyone thinks that the times in which they live are worse than previous "golden" times.

The internet abusive comments are as old as the comment fields. Generally these so called "trolls" are young males doing what their brain is wired to do. In their tunnel-reality this kind of behavior makes sense to them.

Yo Alex, I'm real happy for you and Imma let you finish, but, people have been predicting the collapse of society for as long as we've had society. Yet here we are.

Absolutely not.
Re: Kanye- this is not the first (nor will it be the last) time a rock star makes an ass of him/herself at the VMA's. (example from 2000: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyRO22VSsNg)
Re: Serena- Have we forgotten McEnroe in 1981?
Re: Joe Wilson- See also: The Caning of Charles Sumner, 1856 (http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/The_Caning_of_Senator_Charles_Sumner.htm)

It's a combination of pop culture and bad parenting. It's now become "okay" to be rude an obnoxious. Additionally, since we now have cameras and microphones virtually everywhere, things like this get reported more often.

I blame it on MTV, bad parenting and the anonymity that the interwebs provide.

MTV simply promotes kids to grow up thinking the world owes them fame, and how to be a prima donna.

I notice it a lot in London. If you are ruder you get served quicker and given what you want how you want it. If you complain you get a replacement. I've seen this happen over FREE soup in a Chinese Restaurant that unusually gives free soup to diners "Waiter: theres not enough meat in it; get me another one!" If you are in the queue before these people, they might still get served first as its easier for the staff. After a while everyone gets ruder.
At bus queues, many ignore the queue and march to the front. Others hang back from it and then contrive to be offended when you assume they must be waiting for someone but not a bus. So we end up marching to the front too, because the hassle isnt worth it. Complain nicely to the train company and they will "Note your letter". Complain loudly and theylll buy your silence..

I have to give an example of the opposite. In yesterday's post about the guy who wore a dress to a friend's funeral, our usually critical commenters were ALL sympathetic and respectful. I was especially glad of this when the fallen soldier's father came and left a comment. People are great sometimes.

I've been complaining about this for over 30 years....

Once the schools stops forcing manners, civility and language in the mid-to-late 70s, society has been moving on a down slope. Whoever taught those budding teachers in the universities in the late-60s/early-70s succeeded in trashing society more effectively than the anarchists who were burning buildings on campus.

Those kids now have kids who were never exposed to manners at home and their grandkids are even worse. Each generation is feeding on the ignorance of their parents.

Now even highly-educated professional people in 6-figure jobs curse like mule-skinners and throw tantrums like 3-year-olds; behavior that would never have been tolerated in any professional situation before. People curse in public without even thinking about who is around them. Common courtesy is virtually GONE.

If you're not taught French you're not suddenly going to start speaking French and if you're not taught manners and courtesy or how NOT to act like an ass it wont just happen either.....

I do believe the internet is in part to blame. But I also believe that people are reverting to more childlike behavior in this society. Why? I don't know. Maybe its because this is a society that promotes selfishness. But I have seen the utter lack of respect for our fellow human beings not just in internet forums, but in real life.

I worked in retail when I was in college. The whole working to put myself through school story. I was often so appalled at how I was treated. People were often just plain rude, and they treated me like I was inferior to them, stupid, or a second-class citizen because I was behind the counter. I have even heard comments from people that made reference that they believed I was a nothing because I didn't have a "real" job.

I tried to comfort myself in the fact that I soon would have a "real" job, but what about all the people who work these jobs for their whole lives? We need people to be in these jobs to make this country work, but yet they are treated with such disrespect, like they're good for nothing. But what if all the coffee shop workers, waiters and grocery baggers just left? A lot of people wouldn't like it.

And its kinda goes full circle. Someone is treated badly by a stranger, coworker or friend, and then they in turn treat others that way, if only to vent their anger and frustration.

Seeing this kind of behavior in everyday life, and then on TV makes people believe that this is acceptable behavior. It really needs to stop.

I don't necessarily think there's a collapse in civility. It's just that the internet and media, with its rapid informational overload, has tended to accentuate the negative over the positive. Bad behavior and news tends to be more controversial and attention grabbing than good behavior. For example John McEnroe's outbursts were far more numerous and just as offensive as Serena's outburst.

In terms of hateful and rude comments on the internet, if you see rude and hateful behavior and messages, there are just as many people that will chime in and criticize such behavior. In other words, I feel that there is just as good as there is bad.

I might also add that we tend to forget things in the past which would offer some measure of comparison to today's behavior.

One great example was the Cabbage Patch dolls phenomenon. For us older folk we remember all too well the horrifying breakdown in civility. People were acting like animals, grown adults ripping dolls from children's hands, people fighting each other, for a piece of plastic.

I'm not sure if anyone reads these comments, but i do. I just have a couple things to say. I'm 24. I grew up in the 90's (in Toronto), watching just as much television as the next kid. Listening to the same popular music, being exposed to the same world that these "young people" some of you are referring to, are exposed to.

I read a few of these comments and I could never understand why people pin the blame on violent games, or hip hop music, mtv or the internet. First of all, whatever happens on tv with celebrities and athletes, doesn't represent the real youth in society.

Most young people who are trying to get through college or find jobs, don't have the same attention seeking disorder. They don't feel that the world owes them a debt because of MTV. Anyone who feels that way wasn't raised properly. They weren't taught that rewards comes with hard work, and hard work alone.

And how can any one generation compare themselves to another generation? The youth that rebelled in the 60's are the people creating the rules today.

There has and (seems like) there will always be drug abuse, violence, uncivilized behavior in the media...
In the end, every single person is on their own. They have to experience the world around them, and make decisions.

Felixthecat is right. 6,000 years ago, people complained about how our society is on the verge of collapse. There have been who have done the same ever since. Here's an interesting article about it:

http://www.anxietyculture.com/antisocial.htm

Another thing, where does the LA Times get off attributing this to the anti-authoritarianism of the 60's? Are they seriously comparing Kanye West to the hippies, who were all about peace and love? Are they suggesting authoritarianism is the solution?

I totally agree with Geekazoid

Serena looks like a saint next to John McEnroe, Kanye is hardly the first celebrity to have an outburst (take for example Orson Welles's tantrum on the set of a commercial for peas) and have you ever watched British Parliament?

"It is what it is"
Now I hate that phrase, but, it fits this topic.
It is what it is at the time of the action.
It is what it is when the reactions start to fly.

Turn off the TV, Turn off Hollywood.

Kanye is a tactless dildo. That is all.

Some folks, regardless of their ethnicity and background, just seem to believe they have the right to do or say whatever they want, irrespective of the consequences and the effect it will have on someone else.
We now live in a society where people will tend to only value their own opinions, and have a ready medium to express them, however ill-conceived and boorish they may be.
When we look at the behaviours of our leaders, public figures and big-business over the last 20-30 years, it is not surprising we have gotten to where we are.
The big question is, what are we going to do about it? We all have played a part in getting this low, now if we want any improvement, then we all have to make at least a small change in our own behaviour.
So, I pledge to be a little nicer, and a little more tolerant of others, from this point on, and to turn off and not engage with people and entertainment who choose to spout profanity and abuse.

John McEnroe was not a black woman. Civility must be collapsing...

Some excellent points here, especially Nicole B. Adolescence in the Western world is greatly extended, and we should not be surprised that a society of children might misbehave.

Let me point out, though, something even worse: The Kanye incident was staged as part of his current promotional tour. The VMAs have a long history of staged events tied into advertising, and this was one of them.

This isn't so bad in itself, but it is very frightening that EVERYONE accepts it as real, without question... even the news. If an ad campaign for a pop star is so easily accepted as real, how then can we be expected to make proper judgements in matters of more import, such as government or foreign policy?

Hmm, this is a subject that has been my soapbox for some years. I was born in 1970. I was taught to respect (and fear) my elders. That meant all those older than me that were of age. If I acted up in public and my parents weren't around to do anything, I was assured that an adult would disipline me. It didn't mean that strangers beat me up, but it did mean that the general public would not stand for a screaming kid in McDonalds (or elsewhere.) I respected my parents, family and my teachers. MY generation (of this upbringing) seems to think that was unfair and gives their children everything they didn't have... computer games that teach violence, cell phones to sext on...you get my drift. What we have now is a large group of spoiled and entitled idiots. We seem to think we deserve all that we desire. Get over yourself. Treat the next person as you want your sister, brother or parents to be treated. Love one another...too much to ask of a bunch of spoiled brats, I know. But I still remain hopeful...

Actually, they are called PUBLICITY STUNTS. and they are working quite nicely to get these people in the news and all over the internet and have everyone talking about them.

YO, KANYE, I'M REALLY HAPPY FOR YOU AND I'MMA LET YOU FINISH, BUT /B/TARDS ARE SOME OF THE BEST TROLLERS OF ALL TIME!!

I dont think this is a collapse of "civility". I find it interesting that what we consider rudeness is people actually expressing what they think or feel, instead of letting it go unsaid or expressing it euphemistically. The internet has allowed people to express their views in an unprecedented way, in that they can do it anonymously and freely in a way that they can't in person because what is deemed as a societal norm or acceptable.

I am not judging the actions of Mr. West or Mr Wilson as good or bad-but what I see are people actually being authentic and expressing themselves for who they are. It's an issue now because it makes people uncomfortable. It's highlighted because these people are in the spotlight, but I've seen this shift extending to those around me. It can uncomfortable, but I embrace it.

Everyone is making such a big deal over this. But the fact is, Kanye was totally drunk, Joe Wilson is a closed-minded Republican asshole, and Serena was on her period.
THE END.

Everyone remembers their childhood fondly, and few of us remember the fifties at all, so this is simply a case of confirmation bias. Every time we see an outburst we think it's the end of freaking civilisation, but it's not.

Yes the comments on Youtube are crap, but this is a function of both the mob mentality and anonymity, not a symptom of a wider illness. The people that I encounter on the street or at work are no different now than they were twenty years ago. Some of them are jerks, some of them are exceedingly polite, but the vast majority of them are nice to people they like, rude to people they don't, and often prickly to everyone on bad days. Also, we don't report on kindness or politeness unless it goes above and beyond reasonable expectations, like buying someone a house, so of course it seems like the world is getting ruder if you just look at the headlines on a bad day.

I hate seeing these articles, because they go back as far as the slow news day. It's just a chance for everyone to pat themselves on the back and say, "Boy, kids sure be crazy these days."

Well get off my lawn, you lazy good for nothing kids! Haven't you got anything better to do than make rain out of sunshine?

I mean, do you really think the majority of Youtube commenters talk like that to their co workers and family? Of course they don't.

http://www.oneofthebestsitesofalltime.com/

Following the Kanye West mania

Lol

Lighthouse I have a bit of a problem with " I find it interesting that what we consider rudeness is people actually expressing what they think or feel, instead of letting it go unsaid or expressing it euphemistically."

So if -true to some places on the internet where opinions are given straight and direct without a moderator- if people behave rude and hurting towards other in the here and now, we just should accept that?

So for example like Hey it was my opinion that that busdriver rode like Sh... so I busted his ass and yelled him out of his skin in front of all the passengers and that is my right- I was just expressing an honest atentic opinion that is Me...!

By the way that was not a fake or exaggerated example- That is what nowadays happens about 4 times a week in the Netherlands with busdrivers.
...You say that we just should accept that for the sake of honesty...?

Sure in Ye Olden Days it wasn't much better- On the contrary- in the US and in most parts of Europe, up until WW2 it was custom with reason to carry some weapon for selfprotection if you went on trips outside the city. And even in lots of cities in Europe and the US there were parts where even the cops daren't go.
After WW2 there was a downward line in civil violence. That line roughly was downward until the 1970's. But from there it went upward again.
Civilised behavior does not go parallel with that- It seems that that went it's own way beïng that "civilised" for wery long time was defined by the class you lived in. What was considered civilised in one layer of society, was considered rude in another layer of that same society.
With the industrialisation and the upcoming of consumerism and the accompanying rise of wages and dissapearing of class-differences, one greater general definition of "civilised" started to appear.

...Perhaps we see a next change happen in what "civilised" means to people...?

The least civil are now rewarded and admired. It's called the ghetto-ization of culture. Adults have yielded to children, and until they say "Absolutely no!" and mean it, it will only get worse. (It doesn't help that children learn manners anonymously on the Web.)

The Internet is the opposite of Heinlein's description of "an armed society is a polite society." It's a place where there are few if any consequences for one's behavior.

Are we seeing a general collapse of civility? Not really. People have always been rude to some degree and always will be. Williams, Wilson, and West did nothing exceptional.

People have been jerks for as long as I can remember, it's nothing new.

I actually like a few Kanye songs but he's always been a jackass. I think it's funny that the worst thing about a rapper these days are his manners :D I actually think it was a publicity stunt.

It's amazing that this is such a hot topic! As a society we've placed the three offenders on a pedestal. They now appear undeserving of such worship. I don't see their actions as harbingers of a crumbling society. After all "if you can't be a good example be the best worst example." Or some thing like that. People have a right to free speech and I understand there is a time and place to exercise that right, but get over it all ready. We all enjoy being offended and make too much of this kind of thing. If we ignore it will it go away? If we penalize will it go away?

I love how everyone complains about how rude our culture is today. Missing the openly tolerated racism of the 20th century? The repressive and also extremely racist and sexist Victorianism of the 19th? How about the same exact things happening for the entire history of the human race? Nothing's changed.

People are right to say that we like to idolize "the good ole days" even though in fact there was plenty of rudeness throughout pre-1960s America.

So while it's important to recognize that, it does not mean we have to endorse it or ignore it. I personally believe we as a society should not put up with tactless, in your face, barbarism. The moment you say it's okay because our predecessors did it too, is the moment this becomes a non issue for some people and they see it as the cultural norm for how you act in public.

Say what you will about 1940s and 50s Hollywood being fake by showing perfect families, but at least it gave many people a positive moral guidepost for them to strive towards. (even if it was unrealistic)

One more thing I'd like to add. I think there were many things about our society in the past that we have changed for the better. Racism, sexism, and in general a more openness towards people who are different is a lot better today than it was 50 years ago. However, I do think that there were plenty of positive things that we shouldn't ever forget. Like being courteous to strangers, and recognizing the world does not revolve around you.

Be independent, do what you think is right, but you are not a baby anymore and you can't just scream whenever you want something.

I'd like to point out that there's a big difference between civility and civilization. So a collapse in civility doesn't necessarily mean a collapse in civilization (you can have a truly rude civilization).

This whole thing reminded me of a quote by Sigmund Freud (supposedly). He said "The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization."

I heard something about Serena, but I don't know anything about Kanye West or how rude he was somewhere. He's a rapper, isn't he? Aren't they supposed to be rude?

Who's Jos Wilson? Some politician?

Maybe we're just too obsessed with these people...?

This is nothing new...during Woodstock, Abbie Hoffman jumped onstage during a set by The Who to deliver a political diatribe, and Pete Townshend handled it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKKeXK5DKws

What you don't see in the "video", unfortunately, is Townshend clobbering Hoffman with his guitar, knocking him off the stage. Huzzah!

Wilson -> Rebuked
West -> Shamed
Williams -> Fined

Youtube commenter -> ... nothing.

Here is the cause : total freedom of speach without any responsibility and guaranteed by anonymity!

It's because we haven't had a war/national dramatic event lately to make everyone feel nice and cohesive. This trend will continue until the next one.

This pattern is actually quite common but no so well documented. In a society, the citizens are always the most polite after (and during) a war-like/dramatic-national event, while the politeness fades linearly downward as people feel less connected to one another. The height of the politeness wave is proportional to the dramatic national event/war.

Consider the times after each of ours. Look at WWII and 9/11 first...

@Alex. Oooh! I like that Freud quote.

I think you guys at neatorama need to devise some way of displaying the time of comments in local time wherever you are in the world.

The last comment was at 7:51pm. Where? Here? There?

I was going to comment but the last one was probably at 7:51pm + 24 hours ago so there's no point.

oops too late

@33 QFT

/thread

The whole Kanye BS was blown out of proportion, talk about missing* white woman syndrome.. and regarding the soldier friendship post, I was thinking about posting something distasteful in response to something and make a point but I thought 'nah forget it, yo home to Bel Air! I pulled up to the house about seven or eight, and I yelled to the cabby "Yo homes, smell ya later." Looked at my kingdom, I was finally there, To sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air. *no, there's no missing woman here, but same idea.

I really like that Freud quote, too.

But as I read this snip from Chuck Klosterman lately, I thought about the Kanye/Williams/Wilson bomb.

"Nothing can be appreciated in a vacuum. That's what accelerated culture does.; it doesn't speed things up as much as it jams everything into the same wall of sound."

I feel we're speeding along so fast with out tech culture, we fail to realize our olde rulez of civility.

Civility? No not a decline or "collapse", just a lack of manners, being spoiled and wanting even more attention than he (Kanye) already has/wants... Just Ridiculous! Plain Rude!

Everyone need to take it easy. I'm sure she'll get over it with her millions of dollars.

This isn't just on TV...notice on the way home from work how many times you get cut off by someone, how quickly others honk their horn when the person in front of them doesn't move fast enough. How the person behind you nearly rear ends you (or does rear end you,) because they are not paying enough attention to driving. All of this is caused by lack of caring for the people around you. I open doors for others all the time and say please and thank you. What I get is folks who won't look up when you are letting them in by opening the door and a huff and walk away when I ask my wauter for some extra napkins with dinner. You are not entitled to do everything you want to. What I remember (and miss) is the COURTESY that used to be more commonplace. As a whole, we have a lot of younger people with very little practice in being courteous to those they may not know. It's easy to be nice to your friends...can you be nice to everyone? Or at least try?